Alleged Beef

Chris: “This gas station has a remarkable number of weapons. I don’t think that’s normal, even out in freaking Montana or whatever.”

Alleged Buff is a series where MattRob talks to a guest (usually Natalie) about a film that they haven’t seen, what they think it is about, whether they were interested in seeing it. Then they watch the film and talk about it after. Today we welcome Chris Moore (twitter.com/cmofosho) to the fold.

Red Dawn (1984), directed by the living embodiment of internet discourse, John Milius, is available to rent on Amazon Prime. I sat down with Chris Moore to discuss his thoughts on the movie. Then we watched the movie and talked during it. What follows is a lightly edited transcription of that conversation.

 

MAR: What is your experience with this movie?

CGM: Think I knew it existed for a while. Never watched it as a kid because my parents didn’t let me watch violent movies. My general impression is it’s a weird Cold-War-era fantasy meant to scare teens ino supporting Ronald Reagan’s presidency. I’ve watched part of it in chunks. I think it’s on TNT sometimes. So I’ve seen stuff. I know Russia or China (assuming Russia) along with Cuba (sure, why not?) invade a small town and like, the teens have to save it. Or wage a guerrilla war or something.

MAR: Lots to unpack there. I have a longer history with the movie, since I saw it as early as 1989 or 1990. I don’t think remember it as particularly pro-Reagan. It’s very much more in favor of dumb libertarian ideals. Or even Randian politics. Like, there’s not a banker who saves the day with junk bonds or something. As for the invasion… they aren’t invading a small town. They are invading all of America. The movie just takes place in a small town. This obviously provides a lot of the dumb memes, like the paratroopers landing at an elementary school and whatnot. But the implication is very clear that it is a national invasion. 

CGM: I kind of understood they weren’t JUST invading the small town but the small town certainly seemed important? Like this was the front lines of the invasion? I can’t remember. Either way, I’m much less interested in how a bunch of hicks would handle a Russian invasion than like, anyone in Chicago. Because of course the armies of Cuba and Russia could take over a small town in the upper midwest. Let’s see how they handle the South Side of Chicago. Much more complicated, strategically. Just a higher population density and infrastructure.

MAR: From what I recall (from seeing this movie last in roughly 2001 – Ed.), the reason for invading where they did was twofold. 1) The movie had a small budget, and they weren’t going to be setting off explosives in LA or Chicago or New York on that budget. And 2) I think the strategic importance of Colorado was probably to control a choke point in interstate travel. I-70 (?) cuts through the Rockies there. You can jam up logistics and resupply lines if you cut off one of the few big roads between the midwest and California. 

MAR: Do you have any thoughts after looking at the poster and the cast list?

CGM: The first poster I found kinda looks like a horror movie and not a war movie. Like aliens are invading or something. The second one looks like a Porky’s poster but with kids holding guns. That one definitely lines up a lot more with my preconceived notions. Cast list is pretty stacked. I’m interested to see how I feel about Swayze. I always thought of him as just a terrible actor, but I think that might have been me being young and interpreting his sincerity as lame. Fake? Something like that. I’m wondering if this is pre-Bueller. I’m always kinda torn on Charlie Sheen. Oh. Grey and Swayze are both in Dirty Dancing, too. Never seen that either. No interest.

MAR: Patrick Swayze was a national treasure and I won’t hear otherwise.

CGM: Yeah I think back on his acting NOW, which I haven’t really in a while and think he had kind of a sweet, calm voice and just seemed super nice and maybe that’s what I need right now. Maybe that’s what we all need right now. I do recall watching part of Roadhouse in the past year or two and thinking holy shit this is wild. That’s another one I haven’t seen. He’s like, a philosopher/bouncer? And he bangs his hot doctor? And at the end like a TON of people are murdered. This is another once I think I watched parts of. Similar gaps as this one.

MAR: What are your expectations?

CGM: Very low, but I’m trying to keep an open mind. I’d like to enjoy this movie even in an eye-rolling fun way, or a genuine “cares about the characters” way. We’ll see. I’m guessing it’s pretty childish and the only reason it had staying power was a bunch of 8-year olds whose dads thought we won Vietnam made them watch it. I also have a theory on why this new one didn’t work and how The Walking Dead is its spiritual successor. I guess I’ll save that for after, whether I’m right or wrong. 

 

—-Movie starts—-

MAR: Lol. this beginning crawl. It is a bad imitation of John Carpenter.

CGM: Jesus christ that’s a hell of a lot of what ifs in a very short amount of time. Did it say Cuba had 500k troops? What’s the population of Cuba? And they have invaded and taken over El Salvador?

MAR: Cuba population, 1980. 9.8 million.

MAR: I had no memory of this blast of exposition.

CGM: OK. you could ge that many troops I guess. Is downtown empty because there’s a new minimall outside of town? A WalMart that sucked up all the business? I paused at this god awful statue of Teddy Roosevelt. Looks nothing like Teddy Roosevelt. Can’t tell if they just didn’t paint the plaster well or that white stuff is supposed to be bird shit. I just read Cuba Libre, which is about the Cuban-American war. There’s a brief aside at the end that’s like “Yeah that charge up San Juan hill or whatever was bullshit.”

MAR: Milius loves Teddy Roosevelt. Any of these great-man-fallacy figures. 

CGM: I don’t know anything about Milius. Was Swayze also in the Outsiders? This already feels like the Outsiders. 

MAR: Maybe? Can I tell you how important it was to a young redneck to see that effing gun rack in Swayze’s truck? Just so much validation.

CGM: Eye roll. I also grew up in the country and…. What fuck is this. The teacher is making the correct assumption, that this is unusual but obviously an exercise because an invasion of a high school MAKES NO SENSE.

(PARATROOOOOPERS. –Ed.)

MAR: Teacher is in LIcense to Kill. He’s good there. GOD THIS IS DUMB. I forgot everything. DANK SQUIBS. Thank god for that at least.

CGM: Starts out quick though!!! But yeah wtf this makes no sense from a tactical perspective. How many of their troops are being committed to a small school in the midwest??? 

MAR:  I’d again mention that I believe this is a logistical attempt to cut off interstate travel.

CGM: “They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers” bumper sticker. This was made like… last year. 

MAR: Whoops. I remembered the gas station guy as Harry Dean Statnon. He is introduced later, I guess. This is dumb as dirt. My god.  So much coca cola.

CGM: This gas station has a remarkable number of weapons. I don’t think that’s normal, even out in freaking Montana or whatever.

MAR: Colorado. Colorado. Colorado.

CGM: OK, Colorado. Why would he send children out into the woods rather than drive them to safety? Well, they’ve got Swayze. The plan is not terrible considering the circumstances… Like if Cuba invaded… Colorado… this would be a plan.

MAR: Sure. it makes sense that you would try to go to ground and tough it out. But why wouldn’t the dad go with them?

CGM: So this is the US fighting back. I mean I would say hiding in the woods while the US military came in and blew the fuck out of the town would be a good plan. Dad is probably worried about mom or other siblings. I dunno. Given the circumstances they’re doing alright so far.

CGM: THIS guy. So the Cubans and Russians are here together. 

MAR: Yeah, the Nicaraugans are a little… supervillanous. Cuba, Russia, Nicaragua. Here is a GEM for you. Using gun registrations to track dissidents.

CGM: Oh, yeah. Good shit. Right after the bumper sticker too. They’re Nicaraguans?? Oh, ok. This is nonsense but I totally get American’s fear that all the countries we propped up evil dictators in during the 60s, 70s and 80s would invade us. Basically happened 20 years later.

MAR: The Swayze and Charlie Sheen voices of reason keep them alive through all of this early stuff. Mostly Swayze. I like that two of the kids have matching coats. haha

CGM: Is Swayze like, one of their siblings? He’s not a student, right?

MAR:  Swayze is supposed to be a couple of years out of high school and working at the gas station (where they got the supplies). Charlie Sheen is his brother and still in high school.

CGM: OK this makes sense. Swayze is good. Darrell’s a little bitch. 

MAR: Yeah, Swayze carries the movie for a while. Powers Boothe, the girls, and HDS are big upgrades later too. But early on, it is just Swayze and Sheen. C. Thomas Howell is a nonentity.

CGM: Thomas Howell also in The Outsiders. And did blackface! In like 1990! Soul Man?

CGM: I’m assuming there aren’t any hints of homoeroticism in this? Even though its a bunch of young men camping together? With Swayze, who would turn anyone gay?

MAR:  The theater is now playing Russian movies on repeat. LOLOLOL

CGM: LOL That’s the mayor’s car. The Bicaraguans stole the mayor’s car…

MAR: The thing that I find funny about this whole thing is that the people who owned guns were unable to defend themselves. So who cares if the Nicaraguans used the permits to identify them?

CGM: One would assume many of them died fighting? I dunno. There’s a lot left out here, and that’s probably smart of them. Also cheaper! The more you talk logistics of this the more it would unravel. 

MAR: Oh, true.

CGM: Harry Dean Stanton: “I beat the shit out of you to prepare you for this. This thing that can definitely happen!”

MAR: The big problem is that the United States can’t be occupied like this. It is too large, and the cities too dispersed. HARRY DEAN. Slumming it.

CGM: So the prisoners just get to like, talk to people? Seems like kind of a dumb plan. Then again, they successfully invaded the US so who am I to second guess their tactics?

MAR: Yeah, you’d think that they would either execute problematic people or ship them to a work camp.

CGM: OOOHHH it’s Northern Exposure guy! I love him. Barry Corbin?

MAR: Ben Johnson slumming it! You can sort of see, though, that it isn’t just “kids become super-rebels” or whatever. They mostly kind hide and fart around in the woods for months. (The second half of the movie, though…)

CGM: OH that was C. Thomas Howell’s dad at the beginning and he was killed because they took the stuff?

MAR: I think? BTW, I think that the Northern Exposure guy is different. This is the western guy. 

CGM: Yeah you’re right. Dammit. But hey they got some girls!!! Lol remember when people had to come up with fantasies in which they’d say “things are different now…” while staring off into the distance?

CGM: This is funny. [Russian] Guy just kinda bullshitting this [national park plaque]. Good stuff. Best part of the movie so far. Honestly guy getting shot in the butt with the  arrow is pretty funny too.

CGM: Within the dumb world they set up that wasn’t TOTALLY unrealistic. 

MAR: Agreed. And they are at least acknowledging that it happened here.

CGM: Jennifer Grey and Charlie Sheen in Ferris Bueller are like my ideal couple.

MAR: At the police station? haha

CGM: Holy crap she’s 25 in this. Sheen can’t be older than like… 18 right? He’s 19.

CGM: Are these Cubans or Nicaraguans? Or a mix? Where did we find out some are Nicaraguans? And which Nicaraguans? The freedom fighters or?…

CGM: Oh jesus christ. Singing America The Beautiful…. Where is the intersection between this movie and weird Christian persecution complex?

MAR: The ham of this movie. My god. I didn’t remember any of this.

CGM: DUMB HAM. Boy they timed that bomb pretty well. OK….. come on. Yeah this is getting pretty dumb pretty quick. I mean fuck. The nerd with the rocket launcher? Lea Thompson on the VAR or machine gun or whatever.

MAR: I had remembered it as a gradual progression of them gaining support and gear. But this was literally a switch flipped, like you said.

CGM: Like these guys INVADED AMERICA. I think he just named a bunch of countries the US has propped up dictators in. OK so there’s some kind of “Cubans are better than Russians” dynamic going on here. And why is Jennifer Grey always having to handle the bombs???

MAR: That is very deliberate. According to wikipedia. That was an Alexander Haig addition to the script. Put in a bunch of Central/South American countries. POWERS BOOTHE slumming it.

CGM: Just POWERSed up the plot, baby!

MAR: Man, I watched him in McGruber a few months back and got really bummed that he’s dead. I’m reading the Wikipedia page here and it’s just insane.

CGM: Cubans came in from Mexico? WTF did Mexico do????

MAR: lol. Seeee. Logic! Finally. Sort of.

CGM: None of this makes sense. They leave the coasts alone? Also, the idea that Europe would just sit it out “Except England”. I mean it sounds like they took the middle. From the Rockies to the Mississippi. Which is full of mostly nothing. THIS IS DUMB. They shouldn’t have even explained it. 

MAR: Hahahaha. That prized, population-dense Alaska region. You know, the breadbasket of the US, it’s called. 2/3 of the US population is in the eastern time zone, right? And the rest is Chicago, Texas, and California, basically? But they all target the Rockies. Yeah, the explanation is worse than my false memory of one.

CGM: The idea that like 5 kids could take out a whole line of troops like that is pretty bonkers. This Powers Boothe monologue is turning me on.

MAR: He is the best part of the movie. I thought that there was more Swayze stuff and Sheen stuff. I was way wrong. C. Thomas Howell is also just a psychopath now.

CGM: Seriously [Powers Boothe] is really good in this. And Swayze’s not doing it for me. 

MAR: Same. I am very confused. Jesus. We are three months in? That’s it?

CGM: Not sure they’re really taking advantage of like, the scenery. Like it’s taking place in a very pretty place. 

MAR: Yeah, this could have been more Terence Malick-like or David Lean and been way better.

CGM: LOL. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. They’re in like the most beautiful part of the country but they’re not using it at all. 

MAR: I was being half-serious. It could have been more of a pensive movie, and quiet. Battle of Algiers, Lawrence of Arabia. Badlands.

CGM: They’re not leaning into the comedy enough maybe. Yeah it kinda needs something else. Is there sexual tension between Powers Boothe and Lea Thompson?

MAR: According to Wikipedia, they were supposed to have a romance, or at least a fling. It was cut out.

CGM: Fwiw he’s only 13 years older than her IRL. The girls are older than the boys in this.

MAR: Vanessa Kirby kissed Tom Cruise in Fallout and it was gross because she was born in 1988 and he in 1961(?). I know what you mean.

CGM: I mean that’s like normal for movies but I thought LT was supposed to be like 15 here. 

MAR: It doesn’t specify, but they hint at her quiet and childlike behavior are from sexual trauma. Doesn’t say her age.

CGM: Where’d they get the white outfits? If I had to guess, Powers Boothe is about to die. Oh of course the first kid to die is the Mexican. AND THERE YOU GO I WAS RIGHT. Boothe daddy is dead. 

MAR: Power… off.

CGM: There ya go. CALLED IT. Her reaction makes much more sense if she banged him. “I’ll never love anyone again?”

MAR: Agreed. The scene loses its punch when their only interaction was for two seconds in the flower/football scene.

CGM: Should’ve kept in that statutory rape scene (GROAN. –Ed.). Would have kept the movie together.

MAR: No joke, I thought that [Russian soldier] was Dabney Coleman for two seconds. And was that Bruno Kirby waving the flag???

CGM: Everybody looks like Bruno Kirby in this movie. The world needs more Bruno Kirby. Why wasn’t he in City Slickers Two?

MAR: … He died?

CGM: No, he died way later.

MAR: Oh. I never saw the second one. John Milius: “What my movie presupposes is WHAT IF AMERICA WERE INVADED BY BRUNO KIRBY?”

CGM: Is the Cuban gonna betray the Russian? That’s the vibe I’m getting.

MAR: I legit don’t remember anything except the very end of this dumb trash pile now. Between Powers dying and the final shot is just a haze for me. The problem that I see, even as someone who cares little about military history, is that all of these countries invaded with tons of aircraft, so they would not waste their time dying in the woods on foot if they could just carpet bomb the problem areas from the safety of the sky. It is stupid as can be.

CGM: In theory this is similar to the problem the US had in Afghanistan. If instead the Afghanis were the most powerful country with the most powerful miliary in the world…

MAR: lolol.  …time for a twist!

CGM: Wait when did this guy go away for a while to get a tracker in his butt? I may have been looking away for a second? I dunno. 

MAR: Bad writing. They should have added another line about “when I went into town for resupply” or something.

CGM: I mean they’ve been murdering dozens of people for like an hour I don’t really buy this as their turning point… That guy wasn’t on the football team anyway. Couldn’t be trusted.

MAR: ha. Milius is likely smirking and saying “He was a weak-ass liberal like his dad the mayor. Can’t be trusted. A POLITICIAN. CLASS PRESIDENT.” But seriously, the emotional turning point should have been when Powers Boothe tried to get them to leave for the front with him, they said no, and then he died.

CGM: And the Mexican kid died! That wasn’t even mentioned? No the Mexican kid died at the same time as Powers Boothe.

MAR: I know. I was saying that their deaths should have been the emotional high point of the movie. Not the dumb mayor’s kid who betrayed them and had no lines for the last 45 minutes.

CGM: This is a cool location. Swayze sucks in this for the most part. 

MAR: And I am bummed about Swayze being bad in this. Was just telling Natalie this. 

CGM: I LIKE his little ferret sound though.

MAR: The movie should have been more scenes like that one where they were eating the fruit.

CGM: Yeah. that was good. Jennifer Grey died! She’s cuter than I remember. And now the righteous death of C Thomas Howell!

MAR: Should have happened way before.

CGM: JESUS CHRIST. OK he’s not gonna shoot her in the face… Ya know I don’t think this movie is learning the right lessons about war. Oh for fuck’s sake he gave her a grenade…. What? 

MAR: She’s gonna take some russkies (or whatever) with her when she goes. I feel like this movie is as insightful as a bag of rocks. You’d think that they would have liberated people to join their ranks by this point. Instead, it is the same kids from the first few scenes slowly whittled down.

CGM: Yeah you’re right!

MAR: Wait, that guy is in a comedy when he is way older. Hold, please.

CGM: OK WTF is that nerd still doing alive?

MAR: Haha. The nerdlinger must live so he can die somewhere soon or get in trouble and have Swayze rescue him? I don’t remember.

CGM: This doesn’t feel like a climax.

MAR: ISN’T IT, CHRIS? ISN’T IT?

CGM: These two guys are doing all this? Or is the nerd in there? This is a bit much…. LOL holding three rocket launchers. Awesome.

MAR: If this movie didn’t have a cast of A-listers and a famous nut director, it would be the worst B-movie of the 80s. I am really disappointed in how this shook out compared to my faint memory of it. The thing about trains is that they need continuous track from point A to point B. You don’t have to blow up a train station to stop a train. Any section of rail works.

CGM: “It appears he went this way, eating a cherry snow cone.” Don’t say “You lose!!” You dumb dickhead! Just shoot him!!!  OH NO A GUY WITH LIKE TWO SCENES AND FOUR LINES DIED. WHAT A CLIMAX. TOLD YOU. CAPTAIN CUBA LET THEM GO. “Vaya con dios” And he drops the gun. Great stuff. So many lessons learned. I hope they’re going to the Teddy statue. That shitty thing. 

MAR: Oh, there is a 7,000% chance of a final shot on a statue, my friend. I remember that part.

CGM: I would be so embarrassed if these were my sons. You dumb shits. No way in hell Clark and Henry would do any of this though. So the nerd and Lea Thompson survived. I was not expecting that at all. I don’t even know nerd boy’s name!

MAR: Oh, good. These two walked to Canada. From Colorado.

CGM: “Partisan Rock.” My eyes rolled all the way back. I have died. No, the front line was at the Rockies I think. Which is maybe more implausible.

MAR: Oh. That makes more sense if they walked to the front, I guess. It is closer. But still… “oh, good, we got out of the high, empty plains that were full of soviet invasion and are safely in Chicago… Detroit. Cleveland… New York… Philadelphia… you know, low-priority invasion targets. No strategic value, unlike those sweet, sweet mountain towns.”

CGM: I mean there are a lot of people in Chicago. Like… 10 million. Just the strategy of this seems very bad. Think about all the New Yorkers and Californians that are like… on either side of them. Lots and lots of people. 

MAR: This was the dumbest. Dumb dumb dumbest. Once Powers Boothe outlined the invasion plan, it was all downhill. At least before that there was plausible deniability that Colorado was a tiny corner of the invasion map.

CGM: It wasn’t WELL DONE. characters were weak. Boothe was good though.

MAR: Boothe was almost never bad. He bathes in the river of ham a little too much in Tombstone but ya gotta keep up with Val Kilmer there, so it is fine.

CGM: I’m not sure Red Dawn was goofy enough to be fun. Like it’s very self-serious. It might have literally been what I was saying it was – a plan to get kids to love Reagan. Especially considering this Haig info. 

MAR: Milius was famously one of these Trey Parker types who like to “make fun of both sides” but somehow always come across as douches with no conviction.

CGM: Parker does a little bit better. There wasn’t ANYTHING that was both sides-y about this. It was an insane… thing. It’s a parody of a German propaganda film .

MAR: Sure, but I mean Milius the human being. He is a shit-stirrer. The movie was gross and I hope to never watch it again. You are right. It wasn’t fun is its biggest crime. If you don’t get winks and acknowledgment of the stupidity, you have to take it at face value. And at face value, it is gross, there’s no consistent philosophy (other than ‘don’t trust the commies’), and there is no story to speak of.

CGM: I did not know anything abotu Milius but hoo boy he had a career.

MAR: Sure did. Apocalypse Now, Dirty Harry, this, the good Conan. I recommend the documentary about him. It is kind of eye-rolling at times but it is full of very famous people (Spielberg, Coppola, etc.).

CGM: Now I’m curious what they did with the remake. This one was just sooooooo bonkers. Did people see that at the time? They had to.

MAR: So you don’t recommend this movie?

CGM: Are you kidding?